Poor Submissions - No Laughing Matter!

[Viper]

If I see one more sloppily applied submission maneuver, I’ll be equally or more annoyed than I was the last time I saw something applied so poorly.

I get, and appreciate, that wrestlers are trying to not actually hurt their opponent. In a profession where performers simulate violence for the audience’s entertainment, and do their best not to actually hurt themselves or their opponent in the act, I’m totally ok with wrestlers not being allowed to deliver piledrivers anymore out of respect for legitimate injuries that have occurred (see: Stone Cold’s broken neck via Owen Hart), and having other such move restrictions imposed on them. I respect that move by Vince; but there’s got to be a way to have wrestlers not perform moves that anyone with at least one correctly functioning retina could see either didn’t even touch the guy, or is putting zero pressure on any part of the opponents body with that “devastating” finishing hold. It brings down the already flimsy credibility of the wrestlers, the show, and the profession of pro-wrestling to display such an inferior performance.

It’s frustrating to watch because I grew up in an era where submission moves looked like someone’s spine was going to give way if that hold was kept on much longer. Granted, I was quite a bit younger, and surely the elements of theatrics were still a little beyond me, but youtube a Bret Hart sharpshooter and then one from The Rock, and tell me the performances aren’t night and day. It just seems so lazy, especially from people who you know can perform it so much better. The old saying in wrestling is that “You’re only as good as your dance partner”, and for my money, today’s dancers sure aren’t as good as they used to be. And to go a little further, when you consider how much money is involved in today’s product than back then, it kind of makes it worse to think that guys are getting paid what they are to perform such an inferior act. Vince wants us to shell out $60 a person to order WrestleMania, yet that’s the performance we get put in front of us? Umm, I’ll just read the results tomorrow, thanks ;)

Don’t get me wrong, there are guys who do a good job these days – CM Punk, Daniel Bryan and plenty more; but I really take it the wrong way when I see guys put in main events who are so lacking in skill sets over other well deserving talents. It feels very Ultimate Warrior-esque at times (all fluff, no stuff), and we all know how that ended. As a general rule, if it wouldn’t fly to ECW fans, it shouldn’t be allowed in the ring at all. If Vince ever hopes to hook lifelong fans again with this PG shift, he better hope that a strong dose of realism and believability is baked in too, or this generation won’t be fooled as long as mine was.

[AOF666]

Even though I can't stand him, but John Cena does a good job selling the stf. But whatever they called that move Daniel Bryan did on Diabese Jr on smackdown doesn't convince me it either hurts or going to make someone pass out. I agree about the Rock's sharpshooter, I said the samething when he first used it.

[Kiss My Ass Club Member]

Good points. John Cenas STF comes to mind. I have to dissagree. It looks weak. You can see it in his face that hes acting like he is applying a lot of pressure but it looks weak! And Santinos cobra is not a submission maneuver but its ridiculous. How is it "devastating?" stuff like that belongs in Chikara. No offense.

[johnnydropkicks]

If I see one more sloppily applied submission maneuver, I’ll be equally or more annoyed than I was the last time I saw something applied so poorly.


DUDE JUST CALM THE FUCK DOWN. JUST CALM DOWN. I understand you're frustrate but there isn't any need to do anything you'll regret! just step back! take a deep breath!


I get, and appreciate, that wrestlers are trying to not actually hurt their opponent. In a profession where performers simulate violence for the audience’s entertainment, and do their best not to actually hurt themselves or their opponent in the act, I’m totally ok with wrestlers not being allowed to deliver piledrivers anymore out of respect for legitimate injuries that have occurred (see: Stone Cold’s broken neck via Owen Hart), and having other such move restrictions imposed on them. I respect that move by Vince; but there’s got to be a way to have wrestlers not perform moves that anyone with at least one correctly functioning retina could see either didn’t even touch the guy, or is putting zero pressure on any part of the opponents body with that “devastating” finishing hold. It brings down the already flimsy credibility of the wrestlers, the show, and the profession of pro-wrestling to display such an inferior performance.

It’s frustrating to watch because I grew up in an era where submission moves looked like someone’s spine was going to give way if that hold was kept on much longer. Granted, I was quite a bit younger, and surely the elements of theatrics were still a little beyond me, but youtube a Bret Hart sharpshooter and then one from The Rock, and tell me the performances aren’t night and day. It just seems so lazy, especially from people who you know can perform it so much better. The old saying in wrestling is that “You’re only as good as your dance partner”, and for my money, today’s dancers sure aren’t as good as they used to be. And to go a little further, when you consider how much money is involved in today’s product than back then, it kind of makes it worse to think that guys are getting paid what they are to perform such an inferior act. Vince wants us to shell out $60 a person to order WrestleMania, yet that’s the performance we get put in front of us? Umm, I’ll just read the results tomorrow, thanks ;)

Don’t get me wrong, there are guys who do a good job these days – CM Punk, Daniel Bryan and plenty more; but I really take it the wrong way when I see guys put in main events who are so lacking in skill sets over other well deserving talents. It feels very Ultimate Warrior-esque at times (all fluff, no stuff), and we all know how that ended. As a general rule, if it wouldn’t fly to ECW fans, it shouldn’t be allowed in the ring at all. If Vince ever hopes to hook lifelong fans again with this PG shift, he better hope that a strong dose of realism and believability is baked in too, or this generation won’t be fooled as long as mine was.


as for the rest of that I agree. many of them don't look like they're doing anything. it's not tight enough in this era. It's like they don't bother to make it look like it hurts other than pretending to be in pain and that has a lot to do with the whole keeping secret that it's fake thing isn't as big now. no attention to detail.

and yeah rock's sharpshooter is stupid. but Jericho can be accused of that sometimes too. a lot of times the walls looked like little more than a boston crab. but yeah rock's sharpshooter is just stupid. when he slaps it on you can basically see that they're legs are just tied up and nothing is wrong. part of it is angle and shit. when people push up as if to say they're in pain it just breaks the moves logic. somebody should tell people it's not ankle lock. anyway. but yeah rock's sharpshooter is lame. but yet, I still like its more dramatic flair in away. a lot like rock. but I still think it's stupid. but I like it. but it's dumb. it's good though. but it's true it does suck. it's fun. it's dumb. it's good. it's stupid. I think it makes it more exciting. I think it makes the guys look dumb. I think it's great. I don't like it.

[helmsley]

i think there are very few wrestlers right now in wwe that can actually sell a submission, i miss jerichos lion tamer

[SESAfro]

Big Zeke's Torture Rack looks devastating, I'll give him points on that. Cattle Mutilation looks like you wont be aboe to move your arms for a few hours. Other those twot, not many other submissions that hurt.

[The New Guy]

Even though I can't stand him, but John Cena does a good job selling the stf. But whatever they called that move Daniel Bryan did on Diabese Jr on smackdown doesn't convince me it either hurts or going to make someone pass out. I agree about the Rock's sharpshooter, I said the samething when he first used it.

The move DB did was a gillotine choke. I'll give you that the move doesn't look devasting enough. Maybe he could use a mma variation that makes it look more realistic.

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/637992/nogchokestim.aim640.jpg

:)

[timfeyenoord]

The move DB did was a gillotine choke. I'll give you that the move doesn't look devasting enough. Maybe he could use a mma variation that makes it look more realistic.

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/637992/nogchokestim.aim640.jpg

:)

Isn't that the submission move Matt Hardy uses??

[clh2285]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHTCyE280wU&feature=related
Everybody Happy!

[THE_CRIPPLER]

It isnt that Vince stops them from making the submission look realistic or tight, its the wrestlers cant perform them correctly.

The Rock has one of the worse SharpShooters i ever seen but take a look how Steve Austin performs them in the same matches, its almost pitch perfect..... Benoit who used it after the Rock performed it pretty damn good also.

So its merely Lack of Talent, Rock never performed anything really well except the 4 or 5 moves he did which was more style than realistic looking.... You ever see Rock take a side suplex? he always covers the back of his head with his right arm, or a peddigree, he covers his face so obvisley and he takes some fake looking chair shots with both his hands about 10 inches from his face blocking it.

[THE_CRIPPLER]

im so glad to post on this thread.... i been looking for a threat that didnt freaking have CM Punk, John Cena or Zack Ryder in there... i mean how many threads can be made about these 2 men and John Cena.

[Viper]

The Rock never performed anything really well except the 4 or 5 moves he did which was more style than realistic looking.... You ever see Rock take a side suplex? he always covers the back of his head with his right arm, or a peddigree, he covers his face so obvisley and he takes some fake looking chair shots with both his hands about 10 inches from his face blocking it.

the rock knew how sell well when taking a impactful move whether it was a finishing move or a direct chairshot to the head.

[jethro]

Khali devastating vice grip.

Daniel bryan's lebell's lock and Alberto's armbreaker submission looks legit.

[Viper]

Khali devastating vice grip.

I hope that's a joke, right?

[K-Jammin]

I agree with whoever said Big Zeke's torture rack looks pretty painful

[Viper]

I agree with whoever said Big Zeke's torture rack looks pretty painful

its too bad he can make his finisher look painful but his in-ring ability is even more painful to watch :p

[Dr. Death]

You're correct, there are very few performers in the wrestling business/entertainment business today that can actually use a submission properly or sell it. It was refreshing to see Sheamus use the Texas Cloverleaf recently. This move was created by Dory Funk JR, also used by Dean Malenko and others. I can't stand the rock's sharpshooter. I feel that the way he applies it is an insult to the ones who perfected it . Origianaly created by Jim Brunsell, Both Bret Hart and Sting, ( Scorpion Death Lock ), have used it to great affect.

[steveorton]

Everything Viper said, I'm jus sayin...

[Blinker]

I completely agree that the wrestlers of today don't seem to be selling there submissions well enough. I've always enjoyed watching submission wrestlers. Just to name a few that could use a submission effectively: Bret Hart/Owen Hart/Sting - Sharpshooter, Dean Malenko - Texas Cloverleaf, Sixx/X-pac - Crossface Chicken Wing, William Regal - Regal Stretch, Chris Jericho - Lion Tamer, Chris Beniot - Crippler Crossface, and Daniel Bryan - Lebel Lock.

I know I left others off. My point is look at the names and only 3 are still active. Regal doesn't appear to wrestle anymore so that only leaves 2. I have trouble thinking of another good submission wrestler from this new crop of wrestlers besides Daniel Bryan.

Thank you Dr. Death for recognizing Sheamus using the Texas Cloverleaf. I was ecstatic to see it being used again. It's a great submission when done properly.

[Androo]

Here's the original. From a guy named Dave Cunning on 23rd Jan 2011. Viper doesn't create his own threads, always remember this. The credit is never his, whatever it is he posts. -

http://www.pwmania.com/artman/theres-simply-no-excuse-for-poorly-performed-moves-submissions

[Snair]

Here's the original. From a guy named Dave Cunning on 23rd Jan 2011. Viper doesn't create his own threads, always remember this. The credit is never his, whatever it is he posts. -

http://www.pwmania.com/artman/theres-simply-no-excuse-for-poorly-performed-moves-submissions

Oh man, I think he's caught doing this now for the 2nd time:-P

[maar13]

Here's the original. From a guy named Dave Cunning on 23rd Jan 2011. Viper doesn't create his own threads, always remember this. The credit is never his, whatever it is he posts. -

http://www.pwmania.com/artman/theres-simply-no-excuse-for-poorly-performed-moves-submissions

Damn dude you are all over Viper today, ain't you?


I had have a few serious arguments with the guy but this one reach another level.

Good call man.

[NaterD4]

When Rock put on the sharpshooter, he looked he was in more pain than the individual receiving it.

[tittle97]

Oh man, I think he's caught doing this now for the 2nd time:-P

I honestly think this is the third time. It's just the second one today. SAD.

[johnnydropkicks]

really? is this what it's come to now? you stole my thread?

here's a copy of the thread from a different website with a different but similar topic from several months ago

PROOF

you stole my thread!

[WWTNA Mark]

Viper deserves a facepalm. Seriously.

[johnnydropkicks]

Viper deserves a facepalm. Seriously.

you deserve the facepalm

[tittle97]

really? is this what it's come to now? you stole my thread?

here's a copy of the thread from a different website with a different but similar topic from several months ago

PROOF

you stole my thread!

It's not about stealing threads, it's about ripping off another atricle/blog that is someone else's opinion, and trying to make it seem like it's your own. If you do some shit like that, at least give credit where credit is due, or FORM YOUR OWN OPINION.

[tittle97]

you deserve the facepalm

And why is that??

[johnnydropkicks]

before the flaming starts and so I don't come off too rude let me say that I find nothing wrong with making a thread similar to another thread that was made on a different website months and months previous

[WWTNA Mark]

And why is that??

I would like to know this as well. lol

[tittle97]

before the flaming starts and so I don't come off too rude let me say that I find nothing wrong with making a thread similar to another thread that was made on a different website months and months previous

Ok I hear you, but read the link that is posted above.

It's copied VERBATIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just arranged differently.
I don't like people taking someone else's credit.

[WWTNA Mark]

before the flaming starts and so I don't come off too rude let me say that I find nothing wrong with making a thread similar to another thread that was made on a different website months and months previous

It was copied and pasted word for word so I don't know how Viper "coincidentally" makes a thread "similar" to that. You need to explain that one to me.

Look, i'm not here to make a big deal about Viper copying another person's work but I feel that its lame and a waste of time for the sake of making another thread.

[johnnydropkicks]

oh I didn't know it was copy pasted.

oh ok I see my bad yall! my bad!

[tittle97]

AHHH YES!!!! LOL dude!

[tittle97]

I must say that was properly handled johnny/WWETNA. I was expecting shit TO GO OFF!!

But seriously though good job guys didn't really want to partake in a flame war about Viper taking some dude's credit lol

[Viper]

as far as i know, nothings original when it comes to wrestling.

[jordan1995]

im so glad to post on this thread.... i been looking for a threat that didnt freaking have CM Punk, John Cena or Zack Ryder in there... i mean how many threads can be made about these 2 men and John Cena.

and youve just brought them all back up in 1 post lol

[justanotherPUNK]

Wow!! Is this what it's come to, copying and pasting someone else's words and attempting to pass them off as your own, just to "demonstrate" you know something about wrestling. That is bloody sad.

Safe to say, Vipes, lost, credibility, been, has, not necessarily in that order.

Back on topic, I agree wholeheartedly with the ORIGINAL AUTHOR'S opinion. John Cena's STF is piss poor. One thing I have noticed though, is that submission holds on the whole are overlooked. I remember the times when pretty much every wrestler had a finisher and a submission finisher, or the ratio was at equal (i.e. there were just as many submission finishers as there were standard finishers). Maybe it's a sign of the times in the WWE, less actual wrestlers and more entertainers.

One thing I don't understand is why CM Punk does not perform the anaconda vice anymore?

[tittle97]

as far as i know, nothings original when it comes to wrestling.


That's retarded.

[Viper]

That's retarded.

yeah, so are u pal. go seek help.

[RomanFlare]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHTCyE280wU&feature=related
Everybody Happy!

I hate obnoxious intros to videos. The immortal words of The Shiek spring to mind everytime I see one.

Good vid though :D

I agree with the O.P, though I really think the subject should be flowered out more and put into a blog post.

[tittle97]

yeah, so are u pal. go seek help.

Thanks!

Your views intrigue me, I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[samoan619]

Dolph Ziggler's Sleeper hold is one of the most sloppiest and ineffective looking moves ever used in the ring SMH.. The sleeper hold has been used by the greats and even in real battle, and it does much damage.. Ziggler wasnt ready for the Sleeper hold and he definitely diminished its shine.. Now to Jericho's Walls looking like a Boston Crab these days, its because it is.. The Lion Tamer is too dangerous for muscle bound dudes getting all their weight up top and a knee behind their neck.. WWE doesnt want to deal with the payments for another neck injury.. One submission applied that was great seeing was when Natalya Neidhart put Melina in the Sharpshooter and bent her all the way back.. Of course that was because Melina being so flexible, she was able to sell the move like she did.. The other divas wouldnt be able to sell it like that..

[Viper]

i also liked the way beth phoenix was able to bend melina like a pretzel a few years ago in their I Quit Match.

[samoan619]

i also liked the way beth phoenix was able to bend melina like a pretzel a few years ago in their I Quit Match.

Melina plays little bullshit games behind the scenes, but no diva sells a move like Melina.. She makes the other divas look vicious in the ring..

[Macho Libre]

OOOOOOH YEAHHHHHHH!

Macho Libre agrees with Viper that Christian vs. Randy Orton at Over the Limit is definetly indeed a candidate for Match of the Year.

As much as I enjoyed Triple H vs. Undertaker, I thought it was a bit one sided with Haitch giving Taker the beatdown in the second half of the match & Undertaker taking forever to apply the Hells Gate (which was not locked in properly).

[SESAfro]

OOOOOOH YEAHHHHHHH!

Macho Libre agrees with Viper that Christian vs. Randy Orton at Over the Limit is definetly indeed a candidate for Match of the Year.

As much as I enjoyed Triple H vs. Undertaker, I thought it was a bit one sided with Haitch giving Taker the beatdown in the second half of the match & Undertaker taking forever to apply the Hells Gate (which was not locked in properly).
Um, what does this have to do with submissions? (other than the Hell's Gate comment)

[maar13]

i also liked the way beth phoenix was able to bend melina like a pretzel a few years ago in their I Quit Match.

Yes, thart one was vicious. As Samoan619 said, none sells like Melina, her flexibility is just sick.

[maar13]

Wow!! Is this what it's come to, copying and pasting someone else's words and attempting to pass them off as your own, just to "demonstrate" you know something about wrestling. That is bloody sad.

Safe to say, Vipes, lost, credibility, been, has, not necessarily in that order.

Back on topic, I agree wholeheartedly with the ORIGINAL AUTHOR'S opinion. John Cena's STF is piss poor. One thing I have noticed though, is that submission holds on the whole are overlooked. I remember the times when pretty much every wrestler had a finisher and a submission finisher, or the ratio was at equal (i.e. there were just as many submission finishers as there were standard finishers). Maybe it's a sign of the times in the WWE, less actual wrestlers and more entertainers.

One thing I don't understand is why CM Punk does not perform the anaconda vice anymore?

After Benoit dyied, Submission wrestling on the WWE went down the drain, the only ones using submission moves were Taker going from the Triangle choke to the Hell's Gate and Cena using the STF. Punk kept using the Anaconda Vice but very sporadically. That until nowthat Bryan, ADR, Zeke and Ziggler now using submission moves. Jericho pretty much continued using the Walls but almost never win with it.

On the John Cena STF, I think he doesn't applied that well anymore(actually it is a STS) because one he send Edge to dreamland while applying the move.

On the Punk note, I think is because like with Edge Edgecator (Don't remember the last name of it before he retired, Painfull Edge?) none of the top guys wanted to submit to it, and always scaped it, so maybe that is why he doesn't use it that much.

[The_Awesome_One]

I think they should have henry use a bear hug again the guy can sell it just with his nickname

[Macho Libre]

Um, what does this have to do with submissions? (other than the Hell's Gate comment)

did u not read his little note towards the end?