What if?

[B-MCINTYRE]

[K2Jelly]

They can't moan about hot shotting the title around anymore, they can't really moan about prestige either, so it's either a stale reign or the cheap defenses they are clinging on to next.

Bitches love to moan.

"What? You're meaning to tell me that a heel CHEATED to defend his championship?! We want Singh's head on a platter!"

[ToiletBowl]

The Miz became the most "must see" champion because you watched to see if he could escape with the title again. Wasnt because he dominated opponents. His promos were fantastic. He actually seemed like a modern day Ric Flair during his WWE Title reign.

[Darkside Ron Garvin]

Alright, let me put a little perspective on this as it seems as though both of you are arguing a point from two different views. Rather than bicker about it, let’s get a third mans view on what was said.

Just remember this - nobody sits around recalling the amount of times Flair cheated or got the Horsemen to do a run-in to save his title - hell, they barely even remember the guys he fought. But the weight of opinion is that Flair is a legend and one of the very best ever. So, it didn't do him much harm in the long term.

I do believe this to be a true statement because from the majority of conversations, articles, and thoughts I have had, witnessed, read, or heard, this fact holds true. Flair was best known for his title reigns and not the means he took to secure or keep hold of the belt. He acquired the moniker “Dirtiest Player in the Game” because of his actions, but in no way did that take away from his legacy of being “The Man.” Granted, this is just from my point of view and the information I have seen for myself, so if there is some debatable facts that counter act the opinion on Flair as being “less than” because of the ways he won his belts or retained them, I’d need to see the articles for myself.

How do you honestly know this? There's no way of making that statement a true fact. Guys like us here not counting,I don't see how its logical to say that. Older folks COULD do it all the time.

I think this is the statement that caused the most confusion. Correct me if I’m wrong SB, but you are saying that the statement can’t hold as a “truth” because there are too many unknown variables (other fans opinions) that cannot be weighed into this statement, agreed? Hence, without the vast majority of other fans (especially those who do not frequent the net), than such an absolute statement should not be made.

Because I'm older folks! I grew up in that era and I don't watch Flair thinking, "What a phony!" I do look at him and think "How could he let himself fall so far, stylin' and profilin'?" Besides which, upstart wrestling fans of todays generation don't want to hear and aren't accepting of any older fans take on how it used to be compared to today. Like you're doing just now. They think vintage wrestling is the Attitude Era

But YOU do not make up the majority of older folk. One man's thought on it does not equal majority.

And also from the bolded,you have no idea how old I am,I may not said "Older folk like me",but I could be older than you for all you know.

You're reaching too much too far here,I get what you're saying,but its not logic or fact based,you just have no proof of none of the above at all.

I don’t think that he was “reaching” as much as he didn’t see the point you were making. You are correct in speaking on one man’s opinion not equaling a majority, but mass opinion does indicate that the point being made was valid – Once again, if you have proof to the contrary about how Flair’s reigns as champion were remembered, I am open to the thought.

\

And your argument is based in what fact? You seem obsessed with facts over opinion, where are your facts? If you're going to arrive on the scene and demand a gunfight, you should at least be carrying a gun yourself.

Ask Wade Barrett 1979, Dr, Death or Darkside Ron Garvin. See if their answer differs from mine at all. This ain't my first dance - you act like for some reason you know I have never discussed this subject before. Like as if my view hasn't been formed by years of conversations and corroborations, the opinions of wrestling fans both young and old from over 2 years of moderating this site not to mention being a 30 year wrestling fan myself. And now you're scrambling to find footing, backtracking on your own words and saying desperate stuff like. "Oh but I could have meant this, you don't know!" which is pretty transparent because if you HAD meant that, why didn't you say it?

Puh-lease.

Negated argument – It is far too confrontational of an effort without enough drive to create such retaliation, in my opinion. SB’s counter was that one man doesn’t make the majority; not that you were inadequate in your opinion or abilities to deliver a countering opinion on the debate.

On top of which, back about 25 years ago when I religiously collected Pro Wrestling Illustrated and ALL it's sister publications, you don't think there were like, a million and one articles about Flair tarnishing his legacy by cheating to win all the time? There was no letters pages where fans wrote in and stated that they would NEVER support Flair in any capacity? That I wouldn't read these things cover to cover, again and again because unlike my overseas wrestling brethren, there was no wrestling on TV and all I had was print journals that I would pore over for practically all my pimply faced teen years? That over the years I haven't watched as Flair became deified by the wrestling world, as many legends of yore are, observing as their shortcomings are forgotten as quickly as the shitty parts of the Attitude Era?

Much better response – The data you are referring to in PWI being the IWC, before the IWC. They had the same views and thoughts that have seemed to transcend the generations into the current topic of debate. Check out some of their back logs and you can see similar arguments for the Dusty/Flair battle and the current Punk/Rock dilemma (If the 4H interfere it will confirm Flair as being known more as a cheater than a champ). I’ll dig further into the back logs, but from what I have seen, in no way is Flair regarded negatively based upon the times he needed to use a pair of brass knuckles, pull the tights, or get help from an outside party.

You're missing my entire point. I'm not looking for any large debate or as you say a "Gunfight",I'm merely stating one does not make up majority...Just because some older like you thinks this way does not mean "Ppl don't talk about flair's defenses." I don't really care for the fact if you have or haven't discussed this before,again,I'm really not that focused on this shit. And as far as "backtracking and scrambling" ,again,You're taking things entirely too serious and out of context...Merely saying there's no telling how old I am and you have no way of judging that just because I haven't said it before or didn't say it here...Maybe I just don't care to say it ,As I said Its not like that for me,Just telling you how your logic was flawed,Agree to disagree I guess cuz as i said numerous times I'm def not looking for the debate you are.

Excluding the comments towards age or idea of flawed logic, I think this is the major issue. The issue is a failed communication between the two points being made. The majority of content past these posts are more of a brick arguing to the wall as to what the color of the grout used to hold the wall is. So this is where I’ll conclude my “expert” analysis on the topic.

[Robstar]

Lol, DRG weighs in with another lengthy dissection! You still left out the par where you say I'm right.....

[Darkside Ron Garvin]

Lol, DRG weighs in with another lengthy dissection! You still left out the par where you say I'm right.....

Is that before or after the part where you missed the point that SB was making


And if you can't find the parts that validate your argument in my reply, then it's probably because I don't want to give you a "DRG said Robstar is right" quote for your signature

[Robstar]

Is that before or after the part where you missed the point that SB was making


And if you can't find the parts that validate your argument in my reply, then it's probably because I don't want to give you a "DRG said Robstar is right" quote for your signature

I'm not so egocentric as I need to sig it! Knowing it is enough!

[Robstar]

I truly believe the SB invalidated his own argument when he accused me of expressing what was indeed my opinion (and a learned one at that, padded out by experience) and expressing his own opinion as "facts" or "logic". He was basically saying that his logic trumped my logic but without bringing anything sufficient to backup that logic, which is what I did. So in essence, what he did was the Cartman "Screw you guys, I'm going home" which is equivalent of resorting to "Yeah well you're doodie head!" and running away.

[Darkside Ron Garvin]

I truly believe the SB invalidated his own argument when he accused me of expressing what was indeed my opinion (and a learned one at that, padded out by experience) and expressing his own opinion as "facts" or "logic". He was basically saying that his logic trumped my logic but without bringing anything sufficient to backup that logic, which is what I did. So in essence, what he did was the Cartman "Screw you guys, I'm going home" which is equivalent of resorting to "Yeah well you're doodie head!" and running away.

If that is your view then; I think the two of you were the two of you were arguing two different things (but I’d need SB’s opinion on my view to confirm) and I don’t think that he was arguing your point on Flairs legacy being “wrong” but the choice of wording you used as being “absolute” when we all know, of course, it will never be.



It’s like someone debating if you add two hundred million pieces of Skittles with two hundred million pieces of Skittles, do you get 4 hundred million pieces of Skittles? The general thought for the answer is yes, but the question is, do you REALLY know? Have you REALLY counted them? Have you REALLY re-counted them enough times to verify that the final answer is a common conclusion amongst the mathematical community...? The first impression or reaction is “of course” but until you sit down and go through the pain staking task of meticulously counting each and every Skittle, it’s just speculation and not fact.

[Robstar]

Yeah DRG! Way to muddy up the waters even further! In any case, it's over now. We both made our points, I shouldn't be narky haha.